For Science Students

[Ayesha Asif333]

The notion that islam makes women second class citizens worth half a man is no more than a myth. Over 14,000 years ago Islam elevated the status of women by declaring them sisters of men, giving them the right to education to the highest level,the right to choose the husband , the right to end an unhappy marrige, the right to inheritence, and in general the rights to a full citizen of the state.Under islamic law it is unlawful for a women to be married off without her consent or forced into a marriage.Not only are material and physical rights specified but those of kindness and consideration are equally significant in Islamic law.It also regards women as spiritual and intellectual equals to men

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

i have pointed it out enough number of times already, answer those contradictions to yourself because it is your faith not mine, i know it is utter crap

U r just misunderstanding everything and taking the wrong meaning out. the book has a simple message which u r unable to understand and i doubt u have read the book.
Quran urges those who listen to it, to think about the world around them . It repeatedly encourages people to use their minds in order to see what is the true meaning of the world And, it constantly argues that the universe is made by Allah, who is a powerful designer; it is not a place that has come into being by accident or chance rather this vast universe is in complete harmony and everything is set perfectly in the system.There is no flaw and no need for improvement in it. Had there been more than one creator and controller there would has been chaos and confusion in both!

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

IMAGINE THE QURAN WAS A STRONG MIRACLE THAT WAS 100% COMPELLING AND THERE WAS NO VAGUENESS IN IT AND IT WAS DIRECT---WE'D ALL BELIEVE IN GOD AND LIFE IS NO LONGER A TEST.

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

why is it so full of metaphors,

why do u use metaphors in your writing, to give more meaning to it so as to provide a better picture and to add to the beauty
God patronizes us in the Quran. He knows we are only limited to understanding certain things, and that is what he utilizes. So of course the Quran has to give 7th century people something to reflect upon. Its like me trying to explain the theory of relativity to a 2 year old. I am going to sound like I am 2 year old and I am going to avoid using bigger words and complex topics. Right?

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

go read about extremophiles!!

aren't extremophiles made up of water? whats the problem

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

1.) The scope of Science includes only things we can detect, observe, measure, or verify
2.) We cannot detect, observe, measure, or verify things outside of space-time (matter, energy, time) such as God
3.) Therefore God is not within Science's scope

This is a deductive argument. This means that if first 2 premises are true, the conclusion must logically follow. If you reject premise 1, you are being unscientific as that is widely accepted by philosophers and scientists alike. If we cannot detect observe, measure, or verify something, then how can we run scientific experiments on it? If you reject premise 2, you are again not being faithful to the scientific evidence as everything that we have verified exists in space-time (matter,energy, time). I cannot think of any intellectually honest way to reject premise 2 while being faithful to the scientific evidence. So once premise 1 and premise 2 are established, premise 3 must logically and necessarily follow thereby making God beyond science's scope. In conclusion, we should not be surprised that there is no scientific proof of God.

What about the argument that science in the future will progress and be able to find things outside of space-time, like matter/energy/time? With the fact that science cannot account for things beyond matter/time/energy which exist only in the universe (because humans can only observe/measure/detect/verify things in our universe), then a scientific viewpoint has no answer to the question of whether God exists and no definite future answer can be determined. It would be like having the hope that science would be able to find a round square in the future. It is logically impossible for a round square to exist.

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

Coming back to God....tho u will eventually get to know in it the day u will die ...i would still like to share some of my knowledge before i go

The cause or creator must be uncaused due to the absurdity of an infinite regress, in other words an indefinite chain of causes. To illustrate this better, if the cause of the universe had a cause and that cause had a cause ad infinitum, then there wouldn’t be a universe to talk about in the first place. For example, imagine if a Stock Trader on a trading floor at the Stock Exchange was not able to buy or sell his stocks or bonds before asking permission from the investor, and then this investor had to check with his, and this went on forever, would the Stock Trader every buy or sell his stocks or bonds? The answer is no. In similar light if we apply this to the universe we would have to posit an uncaused cause due to this rational necessity. The Qur’an confirms the uncreatedness of the creator, God,

“He neither begets nor is born.” Qur’an 112:3

The cause or creator for the universe must be a single cause for several reasons. An attractive argument to substantiate this claim includes the use of the rational principle called Occam’s razor. In philosophical terms the principle enjoins that we do not multiply entities beyond necessity. What this basically means is that we should stick to explanations that do not create more questions than it answers. In the context of the cause for the universe we have no evidence to claim multiplicity, in other words more than one. The Qur’an affirms the Oneness of the creator,

“Say: He is God, [who is] One.” Qur’an 112:1

However some philosophers and scientists claim: why doesn’t the cause be the universe itself? Why can’t the cause stop at the universe? Well, the problem with these claims is that they would imply that the universe created itself, which we have already discussed, is absurd. Additionally, we have good reasons to postulate a cause for the universe because the universe began to exist, and what begins to exist has a cause.
It allows us to conclude that this cause or creator must be non contingent meaning that its existence is dependent on nothing but itself. If it were contingent it would be one more effect in the chain of causes. The Qur’an verifies this,

“God is Independent of (all) creatures.” Qur’an 3:97

The cause or creator must also be transcendent, this means that the cause of the universe must exist outside of and apart from the universe. Since this being exists apart from the universe it must be non-physical or immaterial, if it was material then it would be part of the universe. This is confirmed in the Qur’an,

“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing” Qur’an 42:11

This cause must have the power to create the universe, without this ability nothing could be created. The Qur’an testifies to God’s power,

“Certainly, God has power over all things.” Qur’an 2:20

This cause must have a will, because it wouldn’t be able to create the universe without one. What this means is that it must have a will so the power to create could be acted on. The Qur’an refers to God as having a will in many places, for instance,

“And God guides whom He wills to a straight path.” Qur’an 2:213

the Qur’an concluded over 1400 years ago, that a creator for the universe exists, that is one, has a will, is powerful, uncaused, immaterial and eternal.

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

Man with all respect, this is why I suggested to stop discussion on this topic and discuss something more fruitful.... Since this is headed nowhere.

I'm a Muslim and proud of being the way I am. I have full faith in my beliefs.

U r right, its useless to argue.. but idk some where deep down me there is a feeling of care

 

[badrobot14]

5:101 O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.

3:7 It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

the idea of these verses is not to ask too many questions, the reason being that muhammad could not answer all questions, simple
almost every religion does something like this since it is a tool for social control and nothing more

normally i don't bother but when people just start pointing out the scientific miracles of the quran, etc then i have to point it out



violence is not only the problem of islam but most dominant religions that is how they become dominant in the first place by subjugation, conquest, proxy wars, etc

islam is still in its medieval period just like christianity was, so it is still violent

and it is easy to come to violence in islam because it prescribes it in the most convoluted vague manner possible leading to interpretations, contradictions, allowing enough idiots to commit violent acts and where are the so called vast majority of muslims challenging extremism? well they are busy claiming the "miracles of quran" rather than reforming this violent religion

i have answered the other questions you have raised, quite thoroughly in this thread (though that was not the intent of this thread), do your research before making a statement or asking the same questions repeatedly, you do that at any workplace or at a top tier university you will be sounded off in an instant

Lol do you even know the meanings of those deep words... quoting them out of context proves nothing...
Anyway I won't waste time here explaining what they mean coz I think it'll be futile... The way things are going in this thread.. it feels you just want to argue...
The reason I posted here was to let you know about how you were wrong in assuming things about Islam.. instead of being open minded enough to try and understand a Muslim's point of view.. of why will he says he is OK with science... All you do is say you are all wrong and then try to prove it... You don't consider for a moment that your judgement can be flawed.. what science is that if you aren't even ready to explore things... Explore ideas...


And it's funny how you were accusing Muslims on imposing their point of view on others while it is you who does that.. I never asked you about your view on religion or about how religions become dominant... Etc...

And sadly I didn't have time to go through the thread... Ppl working at good places or top unis Don't have that much time to argue without purpose or to read such childish and baseless arguments...

Anyway I'd be obliged if you could answer those questions for me even by copy pasting whatever you said about them earlier... So that we may reach some conclusion...

 

[teachyourself]

I've started thinking that your an insane person...really

you can think what you like but you have not defended your claims with evidence, in any case it is your problem

 

[teachyourself]

The notion that islam makes women second class citizens worth half a man is no more than a myth.

a myth??? it says in the quran and muhammad says it clearly a woman's mind is deficient, that is not a myth, it is very clear denial does not change anything

,the right to choose the husband

no. this is where you are wrong, without the permission/presence of the guardian a girl cannot be married

the right to end an unhappy marrige,

haha.. a woman has to take the man's permission to end the marriage, the unhappy marriage is a vague definition and for that islamic legal authorities will need to be convinced good luck with that, except in the case of tafwid where a woman can be giventhe right to divorce her husband during the time of the marriage contract and this is NOT practiced by all muslim countries so there is dispute regarding this

and if you read the tafsirs for the Surah 4:128-130
https://books.google.com.pk/books?i..._esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sawdah bint Zam'ah&f=false -- page 601 in the book where the prophet kept Sawdah bint Zam'ah as his wife after she gave up her day to aisha

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sauda.htm --- for more references

https://sahsol.lums.edu.pk/sites/default/files/A Womans Right to Unilateral Divorce.pdf
read the material on page 3: heading - Background and Prior Law ---- "......declaring that khula cannot be obtained without the consent of the husband was initially reaffirmed in Mst. Sayeeda Khanam in 1952, by 1959, there was a notable departure from such a reading of divorce rights under Islamic law
and when this was ruled in the favour of women a scholar declared it to be wrong Mufti Taqi Usmani: The Reality of Khula in Islam "....He argued that khula is viewed as an agreement between the parties, and so necessarily requires the consent of the husband..."

the right to inheritence

no it is less than that of a man, in most cases women get half of the man .. so you are wrong again ... that argument that a man has to support a family just reaffirms the idiotic mindset that women need to be taken care of instead of being encouraged get out in the real world and the men should be there participating in the house chores, the problem with women being "taken cared for" just makes them untrained and unable to get jobs earn money, etc not only does this put them in a weak position but it makes the economy less productive and in the case of a husbands death leaves the wife incapable of caring for the children

funny in our world where a woman invents technology that can reuse nuclear waste as fuel and we are busy celebrating a man who conceived the idea of a smart phone

and in general the rights to a full citizen of the state.

once marrying underage girls is allowed, once the inheritance in most cases is half and the right of marriage is with a guardian, the encouragement is to stay at home under the clever guise of "protection", once a woman body is treated a like some form of a seduction device that needs to covered up, once those points are crossed over you stop treating women as equal citizens

Under islamic law it is unlawful for a women to be married off without her consent or forced into a marriage

i have pointed this out above, the permission/presence of a guardian is necessary without it the marriage cannot proceed, so the woman's consent is pointless

Not only are material and physical rights specified but those of kindness and consideration are equally significant in Islamic law.It also regards women as spiritual and intellectual equals to men

read above for the "rights" and kindness and consideration and protection are used as a deception to keep women down

It also regards women as spiritual and intellectual equals to men

yea right ... a founder of a religion who says women minds are deficient will have a religion where women will be treated as spiritual and intellectual equals, okay sure except for the handful of female muslim scholars where are those large multitude of women treated as intellectual equals, only during the Abbysid Dynasty there were instances women were present as scholars hardly a large multitude so the concept of women as equals has never really been there

Averroes (ibn Rushd) stated about the treatment of women
"Our society allows no scope for the development of women’s talents. They seem to be destined exclusively to childbirth and the care of children, and this state of servility has destroyed their capacity for larger matters. It is thus that we see no women endowed with moral virtues; they live their lives like vegetables, devoting themselves to their husbands. From this stems the misery that pervades in our cities, for women outnumber men by more than double and cannot procure the necessities of life by their own labours"

 

[teachyourself]

Coming back to God....tho u will eventually get to know in it the day u will die ...i would still like to share some of my knowledge before i go

The cause or creator must be uncaused due to the absurdity of an infinite regress, in other words an indefinite chain of causes. To illustrate this better, if the cause of the universe had a cause and that cause had a cause ad infinitum, then there wouldn’t be a universe to talk about in the first place. For example, imagine if a Stock Trader on a trading floor at the Stock Exchange was not able to buy or sell his stocks or bonds before asking permission from the investor, and then this investor had to check with his, and this went on forever, would the Stock Trader every buy or sell his stocks or bonds? The answer is no. In similar light if we apply this to the universe we would have to posit an uncaused cause due to this rational necessity. The Qur’an confirms the uncreatedness of the creator, God,

quran's verses are not proof and scientists argue/hypothesis all the time but what matters in the end is evidence and many times evidence is contrary to logic, electrons being in 2 places at the same time, electrons change behaviour under observation, even going back and changing their behaviour according to the observer effect evn if the observer effect was AFTER the act, so when you talk about the creation of the universe logic flies right out and the everyday simple examples does not apply

and there is evidence that something can come out of nothing, read the research paper i posted earlier, the problem comes back to what exactly is "nothing"

and ofcourse the quran will glorify allah, every book glorifies it deity

The cause or creator for the universe must be a single cause for several reasons. An attractive argument to substantiate this claim includes the use of the rational principle called Occam’s razor. In philosophical terms the principle enjoins that we do not multiply entities beyond necessity. What this basically means is that we should stick to explanations that do not create more questions than it answers. In the context of the cause for the universe we have no evidence to claim multiplicity, in other words more than one. The Qur’an affirms the Oneness of the creator,

“Say: He is God, [who is] One.” Qur’an 112:1

the Occam's razor is NOT applied in the science method and rationality is always inferior to the evidence presented, logic, rationale, belief, commonsense, etc have to be conformed according to the evidence otherwise scientific progress would halt

and sticking to explanations that do not create questions is the WORST way to go about in science, it is the equivalent of subjecting scientific data to your biases and also not furthering scientific research because you do not like questions, questioning everything is the basis of science, you say this to a scientist and they will rip you a new one

and that is the very problem with the religious mindset "do not question shut up"

However some philosophers and scientists claim: why doesn’t the cause be the universe itself? Why can’t the cause stop at the universe? Well, the problem with these claims is that they would imply that the universe created itself, which we have already discussed, is absurd. Additionally, we have good reasons to postulate a cause for the universe because the universe began to exist, and what begins to exist has a cause.
It allows us to conclude that this cause or creator must be non contingent meaning that its existence is dependent on nothing but itself. If it were contingent it would be one more effect in the chain of causes. The Qur’an verifies this,

“God is Independent of (all) creatures.” Qur’an 3:97
.

ofcourse scientists argue and hypothesis but evidence settles all arguments; and stop applying logic to a scientific problem, only evidence has the final word

and you quote the quran as evidence in a science class they will throw you out, for example Maurice Bucaille is considered a joke in the scientific community

The cause or creator must also be transcendent, this means that the cause of the universe must exist outside of and apart from the universe. Since this being exists apart from the universe it must be non-physical or immaterial, if it was material then it would be part of the universe. This is confirmed in the Qur’an,

“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing” Qur’an 42:11

This cause must have the power to create the universe, without this ability nothing could be created. The Qur’an testifies to God’s power,

“Certainly, God has power over all things.” Qur’an 2:20

This cause must have a will, because it wouldn’t be able to create the universe without one. What this means is that it must have a will so the power to create could be acted on. The Qur’an refers to God as having a will in many places, for instance,

“And God guides whom He wills to a straight path.” Qur’an 2:213

the Qur’an concluded over 1400 years ago, that a creator for the universe exists, that is one, has a will, is powerful, uncaused, immaterial and eternal.

more attempted logical arguments and no evidence, pointless

quran qoutes again pointless

 

[teachyourself]

U r right, its useless to argue.. but idk some where deep down me there is a feeling of care

it is never useless to argue, it is useless to argue without evidence and ofcourse i care, i wear my care on my sleeve, why on earth am i here then? why would i argue with you and bother with you? because i care, i care because when someone points out something that is an unsupported claim it is my duty as fellow human being to point it out as such, i never force anyone but i do point out errors, lack of research, etc so that out there in the real world, people will not be able to put you down when you are backed up by solid evidence --- and the quran is not evidence as far as science is concerned

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

a myth??? it says in the quran and muhammad says it clearly a woman's mind is deficient, that is not a myth, it is very clear denial does not change anything

First of all Muhammad(S) was illiterate, He could'nt read and write. Thus , he could not be credited with composing or editing the revelations, and suspicion that he learned what he preached from earlier scriptures is eliminated. No where in the quran it is written that the women's mind is deficient
and as for the women's witness being half of men, implies only on financial dealing. and i have already explained to you earlier why is that so repeat over and over

no. this is where you are wrong, without the permission/presence of the guardian a girl cannot be married

YES, but see the other side too, the girl cannot be just married off without her will and until and unless she wishes to....so there is a balance and this both the father and the girl or the brother are satistied and happy leading towards and a happy life. Imagine now if any one of them disagree there will be fights and bonds will break

read above for the "rights" and kindness and consideration and protection are used as a deception to keep women down

How exactly? Although some women have been oppressed by Muslims in some cultures, this should not be understood as coming from the religion, rather it reflects customs that are inconsistent, if not completely contrary to islamic teachings

and there is evidence that something can come out of nothing, read the research paper i posted earlier, the problem comes back to what exactly is "nothing"

something cannot come out of nothing....0 plus 0 can never be one
the evidence is very weak i know
Quantum Physics Undermines the Argument
the assumption is that – whatever begins to exist has a cause – is false. This is due to the apparent observations in the quantum vacuum that sub-atomic events behave spontaneously without any causes. In light of this common contention there are some good objections we can raise:

1. Firstly, the view that some events just happen, also known as indeterminism, for no reason at all is impossible to prove conclusively. Our inability to identify a cause does not necessarily mean that there is no cause.

2. Secondly, there are deterministic perspectives adopted by physicists to explain these so-called spontaneous sub-atomic events. For instance in the 1950s David Bohm showed there was an alternative formulation of quantum theory that is fully deterministic in its basic structure. Commenting on Bohm’s theory Polkinghorne explains,

“In Bohm’s theory there are particles which are as unproblematically objective and deterministic in their behaviour as Sir Isaac Newton himself might have wished them to be. However, there is also a hidden wave, encoding information about the whole environment. It is not itself directly observable, but it influences in a subtle and highly sensitive manner the motions of the particles in just such a way as to induce the experimentally observed probabilistic effects.”

What this means is that the apparent indeterminism present at the quantum level can be explained deterministically by this hidden wave that produces observed indeterministic or probabilistic effects.

However, since these two interpretations of quantum theory are empirically equivalent the choice between them will not be based on a scientific decision but on a metaphysical one. This leads to the philosophical objection to this contention.

3. Thirdly, from a philosophical perspective it is extremely difficult for these physicists (who adopt an indeterministic explanation of sub-atomic events) to justify their conclusions. This is because without the concept of causality we will not have the mental framework to understand our observations and experiences. In philosophical terms causality is a priori, which means knowledge we have independent of any experience. We know causality is true because we bring it to all our experience, rather than our experience bringing it to us. It is like wearing yellow-tinted glasses, everything looks yellow not because of anything out there in the world, but because of the glasses through which we are looking at everything. Take the following example into consideration; imagine you are looking at the White House in Washington DC. Your eyes may wonder to the door, across the pillars, then to the roof and finally over to the front lawn. Now contrast this to another experience, you are on the river Thames in London and you see a boat floating past. What dictates the order in which you had these experiences? When you looked at the White House you had a choice to see the door first and then the pillars and so on. However, with the boat you had no choice as the front of the boat was the first to appear.

The point to take here is that you would not have been able to make the distinction that some experiences are ordered by yourself and others are ordered independently, unless we had the concept of causality. In absence of causality our experience would be very different from the way it is. It would be a single sequence of experiences only: one thing after another. So to accept that sub-atomic events do not correspond with causality would be tantamount of denying our own experience!

for example Maurice Bucaille is considered a joke in the scientific community

it is not only Maurice Bucaille, but many many other scientists that are proving qurans word. Science cannot prove God but it can also not prove of God's existence so when u say there is no God because there is no scientific evidence then you r just claiming

 

[teachyourself]

Lol do you even know the meanings of those deep words... quoting them out of context proves nothing...
Anyway I won't waste time here explaining what they mean coz I think it'll be futile... The way things are going in this thread.. it feels you just want to argue...

ofcourse i know the meaning i have read the tafsirs, i never quote anything without understanding it first as is evident with the relevant evidence i have always presented, and out of context??? go read the tafsirs it is very simple/clear and then realize your error

i do not argue for the sake of it, i argue baseless claims forwarded as science without any evidence

The reason I posted here was to let you know about how you were wrong in assuming things about Islam.. instead of being open minded enough to try and understand a Muslim's point of view.. of why will he says he is OK with science... All you do is say you are all wrong and then try to prove it... You don't consider for a moment that your judgement can be flawed.. what science is that if you aren't even ready to explore things... Explore ideas...

well, when you are wrong you are wrong, this isn't a negotiation you kids have with your parents and teachers, this is a matter of giving evidence for your claims, just because the evidence supports what i say because i say what the evidence before me instructs, doesn't mean that my judgement is flawed

not ready to explore?? if i was not ready to explore then i would not have read the quran to see if it was wrong, i would have never bothered with it, in-fact if i would not have preferred to explore i would not have replied to anyone in the first place

and your point of view or mine does not matter, grow up, it is evidence that dictates

And it's funny how you were accusing Muslims on imposing their point of view on others while it is you who does that.. I never asked you about your view on religion or about how religions become dominant... Etc...

when have i imposed? all i have said time and again that a claim is not justified when it is not justified, i have never told anyone you MUST do this or your must do that, in cases where i have said that opening your mind and questioning everything is for your own good, in that case it is a suggestion NOT an instruction that dictates

I never asked you about your view on religion or about how religions become dominant... Etc...

you never asked but the statement you made was unjustified and i gave evidence to point out why it was so

And sadly I didn't have time to go through the thread... Ppl working at good places or top unis Don't have that much time to argue without purpose or to read such childish and baseless arguments...

if you do not have the time that is your problem, do your own work

so arguments with evidence are baseless and childish? really??

and the statement that i made about people at work places and umniversties sounding you off, it was NOT specifically for this argument at other venues, it was about your lack of research;/evidence regarding your statements in general because when you or anyone makes claims, they simply say "put up or shut up", a simple example when Robert Hooke was trying to claim that the Law of Gravity/Motion of the planetswas his idea and that Newton had stolen it, he was told to bring in the calculations (the Calculus we all studied at school) to support his claim which he failed to do and thus, he was rejected in that regard

Anyway I'd be obliged if you could answer those questions for me even by copy pasting whatever you said about them earlier... So that we may reach some conclusion...

i am not over here to come to a conclusion with anyone, i have come over here to provoke thought, give evidence and to leave the conclusions to you, that is what true exploration of ideas is about to let people come to their own conclusions on their own ... no one ever did that for me and seeing from your arguments upon baseless claims it seems that no one has bothered to challenge your thoughts but your teachers have just made your regurgitate facts and answer exam questions like a robot and nor do they encourage you to challenge them, infact in my experience whenever i challenged my teachers they thought of it as an insult

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

You simply cannot depend on science alone to answer all the questions. A part of you is incomplete without religion... without faith
You don't know the purpose of your existence, U don't know what caused the big bang or what was before it, your evolution theory is weak , you don't know the answer to what causes death and what gives life , U don't even know why does every living thing die. If science knew everything and everything worked with proof , and we were able to differentiate the right from wrong and the truth from falsehood, would'nt we be then God's ourselves
and here is when the Allah says

“Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief.” [At-tur 52:35,36]

7. “And they say: “There is nothing but our life of this world, we die and we live and nothing destroys us except Ad-Dahr (time). And they have no knowledge of it: they only conjecture.” [Al-Jathiya 45:24]
and you are just rejecting the signs and evidence of God, Allah himself says
“And they rejected those signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced there of…” [An-Naml 27:14]

Evidence and science is not everything, u have to have a bit of faith in you. and if Allah would have given us a direct strong proof then this life would no longer be a test

 

[teachyourself]

First of all Muhammad(S) was illiterate, He could'nt read and write. Thus , he could not be credited with composing or editing the revelations, and suspicion that he learned what he preached from earlier scriptures is eliminated. No where in the quran it is written that the women's mind is deficient

he had excellent verbal memory and sharp mind, he was a trader and met people of different faith, regions

"woman's mind is deficient" this was the explanation mohammad gave for the verse where the testimony of woman was half of that of a man, you are not doing your research

and as for the women's witness being half of men, implies only on financial dealing. and i have already explained to you earlier why is that so repeat over and over

ahhaha ... so a woman is deficient in financial dealings and if you are deficient in financial dealings then there is something wrong with a woman's intellect

as for repeating over and over, why don['t you address the isssue of islam marrying girls as soon as they hit puberty

YES, but see the other side too, the girl cannot be just married off without her will and until and unless she wishes to....so there is a balance and this both the father and the girl or the brother are satistied and happy leading towards and a happy life. Imagine now if any one of them disagree there will be fights and bonds will break

what business is the marriage of a daughter, of her father, if she is financially independent (which should be compulsory) and an adult, then who then hell is the father or the guardian to question her choice or give approval

this "permission" of the gaurdian implies that a child is being married off or that an adult female has a deficient mind in this regard as well, taking advice and permission are two very different things

look around in your society girls are married off young because they are seen as a financial burden, as soon as they earn money then parents become far less eager

How exactly? Although some women have been oppressed by Muslims in some cultures, this should not be understood as coming from the religion, rather it reflects customs that are inconsistent, if not completely contrary to islamic teachings

what??? marrying an underage child as soon as she hits puberty (if she is an orphan she should be made to become an independent adult and social systems should be improved and can you not see ANYTHING wrong with having sex with a 9 year old or an 11 year old or a 15 year old child), unfair inheritance, permission for marriage as an adult, half testimony, 4 witnesses for rape applied both ways, these are islamic instructions NOT cultural norms

something cannot come out of nothing....0 plus 0 is never be one
the evidence is very weak i know
Quantum Physics Undermines the Argument
the assumption is that – whatever begins to exist has a cause – is false. This is due to the apparent observations in the quantum vacuum that sub-atomic events behave spontaneously without any causes. In light of this common contention there are some good objections we can raise:

1. Firstly, the view that some events just happen, also known as indeterminism, for no reason at all is impossible to prove conclusively. Our inability to identify a cause does not necessarily mean that there is no cause.

2. Secondly, there are deterministic perspectives adopted by physicists to explain these so-called spontaneous sub-atomic events. For instance in the 1950s David Bohm showed there was an alternative formulation of quantum theory that is fully deterministic in its basic structure. Commenting on Bohm’s theory Polkinghorne explains,

“In Bohm’s theory there are particles which are as unproblematically objective and deterministic in their behaviour as Sir Isaac Newton himself might have wished them to be. However, there is also a hidden wave, encoding information about the whole environment. It is not itself directly observable, but it influences in a subtle and highly sensitive manner the motions of the particles in just such a way as to induce the experimentally observed probabilistic effects.”

What this means is that the apparent indeterminism present at the quantum level can be explained deterministically by this hidden wave that produces observed indeterministic or probabilistic effects.

However, since these two interpretations of quantum theory are empirically equivalent the choice between them will not be based on a scientific decision but on a metaphysical one. This leads to the philosophical objection to this contention.

3. Thirdly, from a philosophical perspective it is extremely difficult for these physicists (who adopt an indeterministic explanation of sub-atomic events) to justify their conclusions. This is because without the concept of causality we will not have the mental framework to understand our observations and experiences. In philosophical terms causality is a priori, which means knowledge we have independent of any experience. We know causality is true because we bring it to all our experience, rather than our experience bringing it to us. It is like wearing yellow-tinted glasses, everything looks yellow not because of anything out there in the world, but because of the glasses through which we are looking at everything. Take the following example into consideration; imagine you are looking at the White House in Washington DC. Your eyes may wonder to the door, across the pillars, then to the roof and finally over to the front lawn. Now contrast this to another experience, you are on the river Thames in London and you see a boat floating past. What dictates the order in which you had these experiences? When you looked at the White House you had a choice to see the door first and then the pillars and so on. However, with the boat you had no choice as the front of the boat was the first to appear.

those theories only point to the uncertainty and have been demonstrated in experiments, however, it is evidence that will settle uncertainty, with the improvements of technology it will be possible, nothing is final in quantum physics, these theories are not like the theory of evolution

now scientists are trying to figure what makes electrons behave the way they do and using them in teleportation experiments at the sub-atomic level

the day philosophy supersede scientific evidence that day science will seize to be scientific

decent attempt but still invalid

The point to take here is that you would not have been able to make the distinction that some experiences are ordered by yourself and others are ordered independently, unless we had the concept of causality. In absence of causality our experience would be very different from the way it is. It would be a single sequence of experiences only: one thing after another. So to accept that sub-atomic events do not correspond with causality would be tantamount of denying our own experience!

it is not only Maurice Bucaille, but many many other scientists that are proving qurans word. Science cannot prove God but it can also not prove of God's existence so when u say there is no God because there is no scientific evidence then you r just claiming

this is the mistake you are making, trying to understand the implication of quantum physics using logic, the impact of the observer's effect and the very existence of matter coming into being are two very different things, for the matter coming into exitence you should read the research paper that i posted regarding matter coming into existence within a vacuum

again science will wait for the evidence to settle the issue instead of making logical arguments

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

this is the very reason islamic science is where it is, you can either spend your time worrying about the miracles of the quran of which there are none or you can actually learn/do some science, you are at that age so was i once (the logical/maturity part of the brain develops till a person's mid thirties), so have been many other people, all those who were logical enough had to accept the quran is irrational nonsense, in any case it is your problem

The miracles in the quran are just signs, pieces of evidence to encourage people to have faith in Allah,No one follows anything blindly and inly the people of understanding will understand these signs, not people like u who have so much junk of science in their head that they can no longer think straight
we can actually learn science and we study science till our death day.. but what r we doing to get out of it . Will we get to our purpose of here. what are we doing on this planet-NO! ... we simply need to think a bit outside the scope of science.

"woman's mind is deficient" this was the explanation mohammad gave for the verse where the testimony of woman was half of that of a man, you are not doing your research

In financial matters men are better and they are better in maths than women.One fact mentioned in the quran and now recognized is that all things are created in pairs.Had there been a similar function for all, the creation of two counterparts would not have been necessary.To ignore inherent physical and physiological differences is surely unrealistic. The creation of male and female means a natural division of function.thats why some rulings may be seen to favor men, many others favor women

U SHOULD STUDY THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET

 

[teachyourself]

You simply cannot depend on science alone to answer all the questions. A part of you is incomplete without religion... without faith
You don't know the purpose of your existence, U don't know what caused the big bang or what was before it, your evolution theory is weak , you don't know the answer to what causes death and what gives life , U don't even know why does every living thing die. If science knew everything and everything worked with proof , and we were able to differentiate the right from wrong and the truth from falsehood, would'nt we be then God's ourselves
and here is when the Allah says

ahaah ... evidence for science being incomplete without faith? none, science is the opposite of faith infact science does not bother about faith

the purpose of my existence is as i define it

yes sure we do not know what caused the big bang but scientific research will tell and even if it doesn't, so what? i am okay with the uncertainty, it does not prove god exists

ofcourse we know what causes death anything that is lethal, as for a supreme deity guiding the actions of a universe there is no evidence

what gives life? the biological processes

the theory of evolution is weak???? nope, your research is incomplete, the theory of evolution is accepted as a FACT, go ahead do your research prove it wrong

ofcourse science doesn't know everything but it tries to find out, it is arrogant and blindness to assume a person knows everything, just like religion does

7. “And they say: “There is nothing but our life of this world, we die and we live and nothing destroys us except Ad-Dahr (time). And they have no knowledge of it: they only conjecture.” [Al-Jathiya 45:24]
and you are just rejecting the signs and evidence of God, Allah himself says
“And they rejected those signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced there of…” [An-Naml 27:14]

Evidence and science is not everything, u have to have a bit of faith in you. and if Allah would have given us a direct strong proof then this life would no longer be a test

evidence is needed not signs, only a charlatan gives signs and gullible people accept them

and yes evidence is everything, no i do need faith it is irrational

why would a god test his creation? is he bored? infact why would a self-sufficient complete being have any need to create us if being is complete that entity should not feel a need for anything is the first place, this shows religion is nothing more than our pathetic attempt to give meaning to our lives

and life would definitely be a test in any case because disease would still be there, natural disasters would still be there, resources would still be finite, the environment would still change, adaptation natural or man made would still be there

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

you address the isssue of islam marrying girls as soon as they hit puberty

they are not forced !!. I have reached puberty , no ones marring me off and know one does, u have just got a stereotypical image

what business is the marriage of a daughter, of her father, if she is financially independent (which should be compulsory) and an adult, then who then hell is the father or the guardian to question her choice or give approval

this "permission" of the gaurdian implies that a child is being married off or that an adult female has a deficient mind in this regard as well, taking advice and permission are two very different things

look around in your society girls are married off young because they are seen as a financial burden, as soon as they earn money then parents become far less eager

i am not here to discuss the problems of the society. You're not judging islam the right way. If people are doing wrong than there matter is with Allah.and each and everyone of us will be accountable for what ever we used to do. If you want to know the right teaching study the life of the prophet and the book
the permission of guardian is there not to undermine the women, but just so that both of them remain happy.Again a girl can not be forced to marry!