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badrobot14

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I was waiting to see if this would end here but, I now wish to speak.... (and I dislike debating on Fiqh issues...)

AsSalamu Allaikum Wr wb,

Soldier313 look I really like most of your posts here, may Allah reward you... Aameen.. the thing is Quran tells us "...And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty." (5:2) so I cannot agree with you here...

Instead of taking the long route of discussing narrations with you and how sahih bukhari and muslim are authentic and what refrences you quoted can never be used against it; I say lets just stop and let Allah's book speak for itself!

You see, according to the Quran, when a man and woman marry each other, they become “fortified”, especially the woman. This is proved by the fact that the Quran calls married women “المُحْصَنَاتُ” – the fortified or protected women, and the men who marry them “مُحْصِنِينَ” – those seeking marriage for fortifying or protecting the woman long-term i.e. not intending to use her body temporarily just for (permissible) conjugation only to eventually dump her through divorce. In both these words, the root word is the same, “حصن”, which means “fortress”. (check an arabic lexicon if you don't believe me)

The reason why marriage is a “protection” or “fortress” for a Muslim is, because it allows him or her to fulfill their sexual desires in a permissible and beautiful manner.

Now, You tell me how can a lady that does temporary marriage be fortified..?? If a guy goes to a lady and gives her money spends the night (or a few days) with her... it's prostitution in plain and simple terms... no matter what name may someone give to it. She will be used and abused.. it's common sense... Whereas in proper marriage, each party has rights.... the husband has to spend on the wife, take care of her emotional and physical needs...

That's why one of my fav aayhas of Quran is:

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا لِّتَسْكُنُوا إِلَيْهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَّوَدَّةً وَرَحْمَةً ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

"And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought." (30:21)

even the beautiful word used here لِّتَسْكُنُوا comes from 'sukoon' to stop, to be at rest.. i.e. to have peace... meaning the purpose of marriage is that the husband and the wife find peace in each other... I seriously doubt that when someone knows they are with the other person for two days, they really can have 'sukoon'....
 
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I was waiting to see if this would end here but, I now wish to speak.... (and I dislike debating on Fiqh issues...)

AsSalamu Allaikum Wr wb,

Soldier313 look I really like most of your posts here, may Allah reward you... Aameen.. the thing is Quran tells us "...And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty." (5:2) so I cannot agree with you here...

Instead of taking the long route of discussing narrations with you and how sahih bukhari and muslim are authentic and what refrences you quoted can never be used against it; I say lets just stop and let Allah's book speak for itself!

You see, according to the Quran, when a man and woman marry each other, they become “fortified”, especially the woman. This is proved by the fact that the Quran calls married women “المُحْصَنَاتُ” – the fortified or protected women, and the men who marry them “مُحْصِنِينَ” – those seeking marriage for fortifying or protecting the woman long-term i.e. not intending to use her body temporarily just for (permissible) conjugation only to eventually dump her through divorce. In both these words, the root word is the same, “حصن”, which means “fortress”. (check an arabic lexicon if you don't believe me)

The reason why marriage is a “protection” or “fortress” for a Muslim is, because it allows him or her to fulfill their sexual desires in a permissible and beautiful manner.

Now, You tell me how can a lady that does temporary marriage be fortified..?? If a guy goes to a lady and gives her money spends the night (or a few days) with her... it's prostitution in plain and simple terms... no matter what name may someone give to it. She will be used and abused.. it's common sense... Whereas in proper marriage, each party has rights.... the husband has to spend on the wife, take care of her emotional and physical needs...

That's why one of my fav aayhas of Quran is:

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا لِّتَسْكُنُوا إِلَيْهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَّوَدَّةً وَرَحْمَةً ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

"And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought." (30:21)

even the beautiful word used here لِّتَسْكُنُوا comes from 'sukoon' to stop, to be at rest.. i.e. to have peace... meaning the purpose of marriage is that the husband and the wife find peace in each other... I seriously doubt that when someone knows they are with the other person for two days, they really can have 'sukoon'....


Ameen to the du'a....

Allah (SWT) did not consider it prostitution when He revealed the verse. All Muslims agree that the Prophet (PBUH) has legislated Mut'a at some point, and we as Muslims believe that the Prophet does not speak from his own desires (La Yantiqu Anil Hawa), so God has permitted it at some point of time. This very fact differentiates between temporary marriage and adultery, because God and His Prophet do NOT legitimize adultery. No prophet of God ever did that.


The partners may have sex in the three cases of prostitution, temporary marriage, and permanent marriage. Quran declares the first one illegal but has made the latter two legal. The other difference, of course, is that the prostitute has another contract one hour later, but in both temporary and permanent marriage it is the duty of woman to wait for a couple of months before entering another contract. According to ALL of the Shia scholars the "Iddah" for the Mut'a is two menstrual cycles (or at least 45 days if the woman is of menstruating age but for some reason does not menstruate).

I emphasize that the allowance of temporary marriage should not cause the importance of the institution of permanent marriage and family to be overlooked. All efforts should be made to promote permanent marriage, to eliminate the barriers and problems in its way. Therefore, temporary marriage, in general, should be looked upon as a secondary measure to protect both society and the individuals from the effects which otherwise would rise.
 
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“… And it has been prescribed for the servant to repeat these actions and words (i.e. repeat recitation of al-Fatiha, rukoo’, sujood etc, in the prayer) as it is a source of nourishment for the heart and soul. There is no strength in them (the heart and soul) except through this.

Its repetition is just like repeatedly eating food – mouthful after mouthful until a person eats his fill, and drinking again and again until his thirst is quenched. If a hungry individual only took one mouthful of food and then pushed his food away, what will that mouthful do for him? In fact, it may even cause him to become hungrier!

For this reason, one of the Salaf said: ‘A person who prays but does not find tranquillity in his prayer is like a person who is hungry… food is brought to him but he only takes one or two handfuls. What will it then do for him?!’”

[Asrar al-Salat, Ibn al-Qayyim]
 

badrobot14

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Ameen to the du'a....

Allah (SWT) did not consider it prostitution when He revealed the verse. All Muslims agree that the Prophet (PBUH) has legislated Mut'a at some point, and we as Muslims believe that the Prophet does not speak from his own desires (La Yantiqu Anil Hawa), so God has permitted it at some point of time. This very fact differentiates between temporary marriage and adultery, because God and His Prophet do NOT legitimize adultery. No prophet of God ever did that.


The partners may have sex in the three cases of prostitution, temporary marriage, and permanent marriage. Quran declares the first one illegal but has made the latter two legal. The other difference, of course, is that the prostitute has another contract one hour later, but in both temporary and permanent marriage it is the duty of woman to wait for a couple of months before entering another contract. According to ALL of the Shia scholars the "Iddah" for the Mut'a is two menstrual cycles (or at least 45 days if the woman is of menstruating age but for some reason does not menstruate).

I emphasize that the allowance of temporary marriage should not cause the importance of the institution of permanent marriage and family to be overlooked. All efforts should be made to promote permanent marriage, to eliminate the barriers and problems in its way. Therefore, temporary marriage, in general, should be looked upon as a secondary measure to protect both society and the individuals from the effects which otherwise would rise.

I'm sorry but Allah (S.W.T) DID NOT reveal a verse to make it permissible! Show me one place where it EXPLICITLY says it is allowed.. I know about the aayah whose meaning they try to twist while interpreating to fit their whims... and if you wanna do that then I can also say "DO NOT PRAY, COZ ALLAH S.W.T SAID 'So woe to those who pray' (107:4)" BUT I'd be lying coz I took the aayah out of its context to fit my whims.. rather the context tells us: "So woe to those who pray [But] who are heedless of their prayer - Those who make show [of their deeds]..." (107:4-6)
And if your argument is it was allowed at some point of time then gambling and alcohol were also allowed at some point of time... does that mean it becomes permissible for us..?

wow, and waiting for 45 days makes it not prostitution...? I think I asked you a question that you completely ignored.. I asked how does the woman gets fortified (like the Quran claims about married women) and how does 'sukoon' come about...?

seriousy? 'temporary marriage should be looked at as a secondary measure to protect..' from what..? zina? I know Islam already has an alternative (and it's beautiful coz it doesn't abuse women):
It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to us: “O young men, whoever among you can afford to get married, let him do so, and whoever cannot do that, then let him fast, for it will be a shield for him.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4778; Muslim, 1400)
Allaah’s Messenger said, "O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty (i.e. his private parts from committing illegal sexual intercourse etc.), and whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power." Bukhari:5066.


P.S. I have much stuff proving just how that aayah is mis-interpreated, and the connotation it gives in it's context... But I do not wish to bore ppl here or fire the debate... as FrostFlash said, this doesn't actually serve the purpose of this thread... If you (or anyone else, for that matter) wish to seek knowledge on this for your own sake, please feel free to start a conversation and I can provide you with furthur convincing material, insha'Allah.
 
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I'm sorry but Allah (S.W.T) DID NOT reveal a verse to make it permissible! Show me one place where it EXPLICITLY says it is allowed.. I know about the aayah whose meaning they try to twist while interpreating to fit their whims... and if you wanna do that then I can also say "DO NOT PRAY, COZ ALLAH S.W.T SAID 'So woe to those who pray' (107:4)" BUT I'd be lying coz I took the aayah out of its context to fit my whims.. rather the context tells us: "So woe to those who pray [But] who are heedless of their prayer - Those who make show [of their deeds]..." (107:4-6)
And if your argument is it was allowed at some point of time then gambling and alcohol were also allowed at some point of time... does that mean it becomes permissible for us..?

wow, and waiting for 45 days makes it not prostitution...? I think I asked you a question that you completely ignored.. I asked how does the woman gets fortified (like the Quran claims about married women) and how does 'sukoon' come about...?

seriousy? 'temporary marriage should be looked at as a secondary measure to protect..' from what..? zina? I know Islam already has an alternative (and it's beautiful coz it doesn't abuse women):
It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to us: “O young men, whoever among you can afford to get married, let him do so, and whoever cannot do that, then let him fast, for it will be a shield for him.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4778; Muslim, 1400)
Allaah’s Messenger said, "O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty (i.e. his private parts from committing illegal sexual intercourse etc.), and whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power." Bukhari:5066.


P.S. I have much stuff proving just how that aayah is mis-interpreated, and the connotation it gives in it's context... But I do not wish to bore ppl here or fire the debate... as FrostFlash said, this doesn't actually serve the purpose of this thread... If you (or anyone else, for that matter) wish to seek knowledge on this for your own sake, please feel free to start a conversation and I can provide you with furthur convincing material, insha'Allah.

i really like the way you've reasoned it out, but according to all the research i have done on the topic, i came to a conclusion that it's halal.

The issue about Mut'ah being allowed at one point in time, being the same as the issue of alcohol and gambling, i feel ( I may be wrong) that other ayahs were revealed to then stop the consumption of alcohol and gambling, but none was revealed to stop Mut'ah.

The permission of alcohol and gambling, if i'm not mistaken was at the beginning of The rise of islam, and it was hard for people to immediately stop these actions when Islam was introduced. However Mut'ah was permitted at a time when Islam was at the peak of its rise.

As to the issue of me ignoring the part about sukoon, that wasn't true.....i honestly missed out on the gist of what you were trying to say....and did not ignore it on purpose. Currently i do not have sufficient information and time to put down all the answers to that but we will inshaAllah continue talking about it on pm.

I may not be expressing my reasoning and proofs very well, since i am not extremely well-versed on the issue, however as you say, we can continue the discussion on pm inshaAllah....really appreciate your input and your power of reasoning....JazakAllah.

May Allah help us see the light of truth inshaAllah.
 
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The Qur'an: as i cited above, the qur'an has indications towards temporary marriage according to some prominent Sunni scholars

The sunnah: We obtain Sunnah from hadith which may be dhaeef, as there are contradictions therein (within sahih bukhari and sahih muslim) as in the issue about temporary marriage being allowed before the conquest of Makkah and not after.
Also, on reading this hadith, i believe Ali bin Abi Talib never stated that Mut'ah was haram
"Ali (RA) said: The Mut'a is a mercy from Allah to his servants. If it were not for Umar forbidding it, no one would commit (the sin of) fornication except a (Shaqi/Shafa)."
Sunni references:
  • Bidayat al-Mujtahid, by Ibn Rushd, v2, p58
  • al-Nihaya, by Ibn al-Athir, v2, p249
  • al-Faiq, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p331
  • Lisan Al-Arab, Ibn Mandhoor, v19, p166
  • Taj al-Aroos, v10, p200
  • Fat'h al-Bari, v9, p141
  • Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v8, p293
  • Al-Iqd Al-Fareed, v2, p139
  • Umadat al-Qari, by al-'Ayni, v8, p310, (reports Mut'a was Halaal at the time of the Prophet + Abu Bakr + some of the Umar's period.)
The ijma: The fact is that No companion ever mentioned it Haraam until AFTER the rule of Umar. It was then, that some started saying that it is made Haraam.
Even if we suppose that the majority of companions said something, this does not oblige us to follow them. What we are supposed to follow are the words of Allah in Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Shi'a scholars also agree on the validity of Ijmaa' (consensus), not as a source of religion, but rather as a fact. Ijmaa' means what is unanimously held by ALL Muslims. This fact is taken from the Sunna and is due to the tradition of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) where he said:
"My community shall not unite on something wrong."
This proves the fact that even if most of Muslims go wrong in some issues there should exist one or some individuals who do not join them in that regard as they might have evidence at hand from Quran and Sunna regarding those issues.
It is clear that Ijmaa' does not give any weight to the majority. In fact, it gives more weight to the minority because even if one scholar disagrees, the Ijmaa' (consensus) is broken!
There is no Ijma' in the subject of Mut'a. Most of the companions and their disciples did not agree with its prohibition by Umar. But only some of them dared to raise their voice.

The Qiyaas: i have no opinion here since i am not very well-aversed with the issue of Qiyaas


May Allah guide us.

A s for the Ayah ... the interepretation was wrong... You read other Tafaseer you will get the correct meaning
Firstly The Sunnah means the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals of the Prophet....
What you quoted is a statement of Ali not the Prophet and in your earlier post you yourself said it is weak... and it is I have gone through it and as it clearly contradicts Sahih hadith esp that of Ali many of them so it is to be rejected...


As for the other references i know that almost all of them are qouted out of context and only bits of the whole discuusion are quoted sthg Shiite scholars are pros at.... esp the one of Fathul Bari...
Fathul Bari is the commentary of Sahih Bukhari and many references i quoted contain prohibitions for this act.... And Imam Ibn Hajar discusses and concludes Mutah is Haram..

So I would advise you to go through tthe references you quoted.... before you lift and post it out here from some Shiite site ....
 
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A s for the Ayah ... the interepretation was wrong... You read other Tafaseer you will get the correct meaning
Firstly The Sunnah means the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals of the Prophet....
What you quoted is a statement of Ali not the Prophet and in your earlier post you yourself said it is weak... and it is I have gone through it and as it clearly contradicts Sahih hadith esp that of Ali many of them so it is to be rejected...


As for the other references i know that almost all of them are qouted out of context and only bits of the whole discuusion are quoted sthg Shiite scholars are pros at.... esp the one of Fathul Bari...
Fathul Bari is the commentary of Sahih Bukhari and many references i quoted contain prohibitions for this act.... And Imam Ibn Hajar discusses and concludes Mutah is Haram..

So I would advise you to go through tthe references you quoted.... before you lift and post it out here from some Shiite site ....

the ayah - well i'll recheck for the tafseer
the hadith my friend may you please state where exactly i said this particular hadith is weak??
about me lifting references from shi'a sites and posting them here, well i do try and go through them before posting, if i have erred in the process and overlooked something, May Allah forgive me.
We can now continue this discussion through pm, i don't want this thread to be closed for these issues. hence inshaAllah we can certainly continue this discussion later.

May Allah forgive me if i have erred in any way. Allah knows best.

Thanx for your input and feedback, really appreciate it.

As for the other references i know that almost all of them are qouted out of context and only bits of the whole discuusion are quoted sthg Shiite scholars are pros at.... esp the one of Fathul Bari...

I found this particular part very offending, i seriously try to maintain justice and equality when i speak and am not offensive to any particular sect.
the part i have put in purple was something you had absolutely no right to say!

Anyways inorder for the thread to maintain order, i will take it that you perhaps did not mean it that way.
 
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PENCIL:- "I’m sorry"

ERASER:- "For what? You didn’t do anything wrong"

PENCIL:- "I’m sorry because you get hurt because of me. Whenever I made a mistake, you’re always there to erase it. But as you make my mistakes vanish, you lose a part of yourself. You get smaller and smaller each time"

ERASER:- "That’s true. But I don’t really mind. You see, I was made to do this. I was made to help you whenever you do something wrong. Even though one day, I know I’ll be gone and you’ll replace me with a new one, I’m actually happy with my job. So please, stop worrying. I hate seeing you sad.

I found this conversation between the pencil and the eraser very inspirational. Parents are like the eraser whereas their children are the pencil. They’re always there for their children, cleaning up their mistakes. Sometimes along the way, they get hurt, and become smaller / older, and eventually pass on. Though their children will eventually find someone new (spouse), but parents are still happy with what they do for their children, and will always hate seeing their precious ones worrying, or sad"

All my life, I’ve been the pencil. And it pains me to see the eraser that is my parents getting smaller and smaller each day. For I know that one day, all that I will be left with would be eraser shavings and memories of what I used to have.

Once a person asked the Prophet:

“Who deserves the best care from Me?”

The Prophet replied:

“Your Mother, Your Mother, Your Mother, and then your Father..”

(Al-Bukhari and Muslim)
 
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A LETTER FROM SHAITAN

I saw you yesterday as you began your daily chores. You awoke without stopping to pray. As a matter of fact, you didn't even bless your meals, or pray before going to bed last night. You are so unthankful, I like that about you. I cannot tell you how glad I am that you have not changed your way of living, Fool, you are mine.

Remember, you and I have been going steady for years, and I still don't love you yet. As a matter of fact, I hate you, because I hate God. I am only using you to get even with God. He kicked me out of heaven, and I'm going to use you as long as possible to pay him back. You see, Fool,GOD LOVES YOUandHEhas great plans in store for you. But you have yielded your life to me and I'm going to make your life a living hell. That way we'll be together twice. This will really hurt God. Thanks to you.

I'm really showing Him who's boss in your life. With all of the good times we've had..... We have been watching dirty movies, cursing people, out partying, stealing, lying, being hypocritical, indulging in fornication, overeating, telling dirty jokes, gossiping, back stabbing people, disrespecting adults and those in leadership position, NO respect for the mosque, bad attitudes: SURELY you don't want to give all this up.

Come on, Fool, let's burn together forever. I've got some hot plans for us. This is just a letter of appreciation from me to you. I'd like to say"Thanks!"for letting me use you for most of your foolish life. You are so gullible, I laugh at you. When you are tempted to sin, you give in HA HA HA, you make me sick. Sin is beginning to take its toll on your life. You look 20 years older, I need new blood. So go ahead and teach some children how to sin.

All you have to do is smoke, drink alcoholic beverages, cheat, gamble, gossip, fornicate, and listen to and dance to the top 10 jams. Do all of this in the presence of children and they will do it too. Kids are like that. Well, Fool, I have to let you go for now. I'll be back in a couple of seconds to tempt you again. If you were smart, you would run somewhere, confess your sins, ask forgiveness from Him, live for God with what little bit of life that you have left. It's not my nature to warn anyone, but to be your age and still sinning, it's becoming a bit ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I still hate you...... IT'S JUST THAT YOU'D MAKE A BETTER FOOL FOR GOD.


Stop for a moment.....think......have we let Shaitan take such control over our lives??????
Remember it's never too late.......we can turn back to Allah.....He is ready to accept us if we are ready to turn to Him sincerely....inshaAllah....
 
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